Posts by Cold Steel

67

WT Admits It's Free For Them ... But Not For You

by Perry in

it official and clear as mud.

however i pulled out my highlighter and made a few notes.. it's free for us - but it ain't for y'all.

too bad i missed the 6/15/2011 wt study.

Cold Steel

...Mormons’ authority is [the] Book of Mormon, [while] us “born againers’” main
authority is God’s word, the Bible.

This is why people who want to know about religions should go to people who are members of those religions and not self-styled experts in other sects.

In this case, the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not rest in the Book of Mormon. Books, including the Bible, do not convey authority. No man has ever received even a scintilla of divine authority from a book. Books convey information and intelligence, but not authority—and I challenge anyone to show me otherwise.

Another problem is that the Bible is not complete. There are scores of questions it doesn’t answer. For example: 1) how is baptism performed? 2) who is authorized to perform it? 3) is it still necessary to bestow the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands? 4) if so, who is authorized to perform it and what words are said? 5) what are the duties of the various officers? 6) what does a bishop do? 7) what does an elder do? 8) can one elder or bishop ordain another elder or bishop, respectively? 9) who can speak for the entire church? 10) how does the church determine what is scripture? (The early church always had an open canon...in fact, there’s never been a time in the history of the church that the canon has been closed.)

These are just ten questions I came up with off the top of my head. I could easily write another ten, and then another. The view that the Bible is the total and complete Word of God is a very narrow view, and we Mormons don’t apologize for accepting other books of scripture such as the Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants. Both were written by prophets under the inspiration of the Spirit of God or direct visitations by angelic beings in fulfillment of biblical prophecy. What then? If Elijah appears in a temple and conveys the keys of authority for the binding of families forever, wouldn’t that event, if true, be worthy of being recorded in scripture? That can’t happen with a closed canon. Oh, and one more question, 11) if the Lord has a communication for mankind, who could he possibly call on who could authoritatively deliver the message? Would the Methodists listen to a Baptist? Would the Southern Baptist Convention consider the word of a Presbyterian? This business about the “body of Christ” being a collection of competitive religions is a manmade doctrine and is a crock. Certainly, the only man a Jehovah's Witness might listen to would be a member of the Governing Body, and they say they don’t receive revelation...except for “new light.”

If the early church needed to glean authority from the scriptures, what scriptures did the early church use to gain their authority? I see these paranormal shows on TV and the Christian pastor walking around a haunted house with his worn Bible and reading from it. More often than not it doesn’t do any good, and how could it? Satan knew the scriptures as well as Jesus and used them to tempt him.

67

WT Admits It's Free For Them ... But Not For You

by Perry in

it official and clear as mud.

however i pulled out my highlighter and made a few notes.. it's free for us - but it ain't for y'all.

too bad i missed the 6/15/2011 wt study.

Cold Steel

This is incredible. It made even me sputter, and I'm used to JW doctrine!

The person who wrote this piece most likely had a few drinks before coming home, went home, had a couple of glasses of wine with his meal, didn't feel too well and, fearing he was catching a cold, down a cup of cold medicine, then decided to write the article so he wouldn't have to the next day. It has a woozy quality to it and it certainly isn't justified by scripture.

The truth is, God wants everyone to be resurrected and have a physically real spiritual body like His. When Jesus was resurrected, He did not tell anyone that He was a spirit. Quite to the contrary, He said specifically that He was not a spirit. "Here," He said,"handle me and see. For a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have." But how, they reasoned, could He go through the ceiling and the doors? Surely He must have been a Spirit, for a flesh and bone being could not do that. But of course they can. The JWs just made a supposition that affects their entire way of doing things, and with no authority at all. After all, what could Jesus do when He was resurrected in Jerusalem? His body was gone from the tomb and his burial clothes were neatly folded right where He left it, so we know it was a physical resurrection. He could go through ceilings and walls, but that's not because He was a spirit; it's because he had molecular control over His entire body. Blood did not flow through his veins, but instead, spirit. They also used to say that John the Baptist wasn't going to heaven because Jesus, although praising him, said that "he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater that he." By that the Lord meant Himself. He, the Lord, having suffered for all things mortal, had the least claim on the Kingdom. But He was greater than John.

It's painful to read sometimes!

13

Derren Brown Fear & Faith

by dozy in

i'm a big derren brown fan & enjoyed these episodes - interesting from an ex-jw perspective ( where essentially all of us were fooled , consciously or subconsciously by the society ).. especially interesting is ( in part 2 ) where he convinces a totally atheistic stem cell scientist to have a religious conversion in 15 minutes.

presumably this is the same mechanism where jws become "anointed" ( or where evangelicals become born again etc.

he also touches on subliminal images ( larsinger please note!).

Cold Steel

I've seen his do some fascinating things. Unfortunately, the links don't work (at least for me).

My favorite episode is when he made the sun disappear in the middle of a desert. He actually put a guy to sleep, reset his watch, waited for the sun to go down, then woke him up. It was hilarious, especially when the guy looked at his watch. I also enjoyed the one where he made a woman into a professional concert pianist in one week. The trick was, she already was a concert pianist. He just made her forget.

Someone like Derren Brown can be dangerous if he's not bound by ethics. He seduced a number of gals at a bar by telling them exactly what they wanted to hear. Too bad he's gay.

Wonder if he can convince a gay person that they're straight and vice versa?

15

The last moments of Pastor Russell in a sleeper car in Pampas Texas

by Terry in

" his mother's voice.. .

"mother?".

"who is that, mother?

Cold Steel

One of the most fascinating near death stories I've ever read is Return From Tomorrow by George Ritchie. And one of the most ironic things about the Jehovah's Witnesses is that when they die, it takes them only moments to realize that they need to rethink their eschatological doctrines and convictions.

Many of you are either Jehovah's Witnesses or former members, and you were taught that when you’re dead, you cease to exist until God recreates you sometime in the future. To them, they close their eyes in death and then the next minute they open them sometime in the future. But what if that doesn’t happen? What happens if you’re horribly sick and suddenly you feel much better? You get out of the bed thinking you’ve beat the sickness and you look back and see someone lying in the bed you just got out of. At first it frightens you. Who is that person? (Many people don’t recognize themselves because they’re not used to seeing themselves in 3D aside from a mirror, and the experience is almost universally startling because they think it’s someone else.) This happened in Ritchie’s story. “...Suddenly I remembered the young man I had seen in the bed in that little hospital room,” he wrote. “What if it had been me?”

Later he recounts: “And slowly a...more alarming truth began to register. I had never seen myself! Not really. Not the way I saw other people ... from the shoulders up...I had seen only a two-dimensional mirror-image staring at me from a piece of glass. And occasionally a snapshot, equally two-dimensional. That was all. The roundedness, the living, space-filling presence of myself, I did not know at all.”

But what must a Jehovah’s Witness think when they experience the same? Certainly they can’t blame this on the Devil, or some aberration of perception. But is it enough to change their views?

I don’t think someone’s beliefs are enough to condemn them to a never ending tortuous Hell, as the OP suggests; however, Russell and “the Judge” misled a number of people who relied on their scriptural exegesis.

But what do you think? Is there life after death and, if so, how do you think Jehovah's Witnesses react to it? If you’re a former JW, have you changed your opinions about death?

10

If Daniel was the chief of the Magoi then why did God choose a pagan to be a prophet?

by I_love_Jeff in

two part question:.

if god allowed daniel to be chief of the magoi, why would the magi be considered bad in the eyes of jah, according to the jehovah's witnesses?

the jehovah's witnesses of course believe that the magi, pagan astrologers, were not god's messengers because of their dabblings in the occult.

Cold Steel

Q: ...then why did God move the Star after the Magi talked to Herod?

Answers by John A. Tvedtnes, specialist in ancient Near Eastern studies and instructor at the Brigham Young University–Salt Lake Center. Printed with permission.

A: The star is perhaps the most puzzling aspect of the story, because the wise men are generally depicted as following the moving celestial body from their homeland (or a central meeting point) to Jerusalem, and then to Bethlehem. Our modern knowledge of astronomy makes it difficult to accept such a view. And since the new star was also seen by inhabitants of the American continent...it obviously couldn’t have hovered over the wise men. Their report to Herod that they had “seen his star in the east” (Matt. 2:2) may have meant that they themselves were in the east at the time, not that the star was in the east and moved westward. An alternate translation sometimes given to the Greek text is not “in the east” but “at its rising.”

Q: If the wise men weren’t following the star from their homeland, how were they able to pinpoint the country where the new king would be born?

A: We must attribute their knowledge to some tradition or prophecy in their homeland. They knew enough to come to Judea, but did not go directly to Bethlehem. Instead, they went to the palace in Jerusalem—a place where one would expect the birth of a king. When they appeared in Herod’s court, they asked, “Where is he that is born King of the Jews?” (Matt. 2:2.) Quite obviously, they knew they were looking for a Jew.

While there is no hint in the Matthew account that the star “led” the wise men to the west from their homeland, there was some sort of directional indication when they went from Jerusalem to Bethlehem. (See Matt. 2:9–10.) Since Herod’s people had instructed them that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem (see Matt. 2:4–6), there was no need for the star to show the way there. But it would have been helpful in pinpointing the spot where they could find Jesus. (See Matt. 2:9.) We do not know exactly how it did this. ... Interestingly, one source indicates that it was an angel in the guise of a star. (See 1 Infancy Gospel 3:3.)

Q: How many wise men were there, and who were they?

A: We don’t know if the wise men rode camels. We don’t even know for sure how many there were. While some traditions indicate there were twelve of them, three is the most popular number because of the three expensive gifts—gold, frankincense, and myrrh. (See Matt. 2:11. ) [Note: Some scholars believe the Magi brought only two gifts—gold frankincense and myrrh. Gold frankincense was by far the most expensive and it was highly sought in the ancient Middle East. — CS]

We are also uncertain about what they were and where they were from. It is possible that they were Jewish, for at that time there still lived in Babylonia and Persia a very large Jewish community—perhaps more numerous than the Jews under Herod’s rule. Some traditions use Old Testament passages to support the idea that they were kings. (See Isa. 49:7; Isa. 60:3–7.) Others cite Psalm 72:10, 15, [Ps. 72:10, 15] as evidence that the alleged three kings were from Tarshish, Sheba, and Seba, identified in medieval times with Spain, Ethopia, and Arabia.

Other scholars believe the wise men were from Persia because the Greek word behind the King James Version translation of wise men (in Matt. 2:1, 7, 16) is Magoi, a Persian word sometimes rendered in English texts as Magi. This word, the origin of our English word magic, refers to priests in the Zoroastrian religion of ancient Persia. Early Christian tradition associates the coming of the Magi with a prophecy attributed to Zoroaster, whom ancient Persians accepted as a prophet. (See I Infancy Gospel 3:1, in The Lost Books of the Bible, New York: The World Publishing Co., 1926, p. 40.)

Q: Why didn't God just get rid of the Magi somehow if they were considered practitioners of an occult art which is automatically deemed wicked in God's eyes?

A: But why did God send the wise men to Bethlehem? It is true that Herod began his search for the young Messiah as a result of their visit. But news from the tale of the shepherds was bound to find its way to the court ultimately anyway. (See Luke 2:17–18.) Sooner or later, he would come searching for the child to destroy him. Joseph and Mary were poor and would not have had the means to travel out of Herod’s reach. Their poverty may, in fact, have been the reason they remained in Bethlehem rather than returning to Nazareth. But with the precious gifts brought by the wise men, they could escape into Egypt. Thus, it is likely that the arrival of the wise men was part of God’s plan for fulfilling prophecy and for preserving the family from danger.

Another purpose may have been served by the wise men. We cannot know with whom they shared their experiences, but it is possible that they spread the knowledge of the Messiah’s birth to the Jewish community throughout Babylonia and Persia.

77

Have you ACTUALLY seen any Bible prophecies fulfilled in your life/lifetime?

by punkofnice in

blowed if i have!.

i know the jdubs think that there are prophetic signs all around.

well they bloody would!.

Cold Steel

... aren't scriptures SO VAGUE that prophecy could be interpreted as virtually anything you want?

In some cases, perhaps, but also in many cases, no. Prophecies tend to be specific and those who are familiar with the New Testament couldn’t miss the numerous prophecies pointing to Jesus in the Old Testament. Isaiah 53 is so specific that it sounds as though it was written in the First Century A.D.; however, there are many more prophecies. Look at the creation of Israel, which was scattered among the nations. The prophet Amos wrote: “And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.” (Amos 9:14-15)

This prophecy was fulfilled literally when the Romans scattered the Jews among the nations of the earth and then gathered them back to their own lands. Then they will revitalize the land, as they’ve done, and Amos really goes out on a limb when he writes, “and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them.” From there, jump to Zechariah 12-14, where the prophet predicts that after Israel is gathered, the Lord will go to its aid when it’s attacked: “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.” Israel has won some amazing confrontations when attacked by its neighbors (1948 and 1968 are notable examples). Armageddon will be the last battle of the region and the Lord will appear personally and destroy Israel’s enemies.

Isaiah also prophesied that Judah would be dispersed among the nations of the earth, then gathered back to the lands of its inheritance. He writes: “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isa. 11:11-12)

It’s difficult to overemphasize the accuracy of these prophecies. At the time they were given, they were preposterous. Even the Babylonian conquest and subsequent captivity, which was devastating to the Jews, didn’t begin to compare with the dispersion and restoration. In fact, Israel was not declared to be a nation again until 1948. But the Jehovah's Witnesses didn’t emerge until the late 1870s. The prophecy thus had not yet been fulfilled. So Charles T. Russell and later leaders had to spiritualize the prophecies so they didn’t point to the Jews and Jerusalem but, rather, to the church. And Armageddon, which was supposed to take place in Jerusalem against the Jews, instead was a worldwide conflagration between good and evil, or more specifically, between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Devil. Even after the establishment of Israel as a state, they’ve continued to assert that Armageddon is a war between the church and the wicked; and they’ve made such a big deal out of it that even “new light” can’t change things.

The prophecies in scripture aren’t the strong point in JW theology. Members don’t know them and don’t study them. I’ve read a number of articles on Armageddon in the Watchtower and other publications, including the Bible Study book and The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life, and I’ve always come away astounded how little is known about the real Armageddon.

Based on the stunning accuracy of biblical prophecies already fulfilled, prophecies yet unfulfilled have an excellent chance of coming to pass. Jesus also foretold the fate of Jerusalem and the Jews, and when the Romans came down on the city, the Christians were all ensconced in Pella and other cities to the north where their leaders had led them. As Jesus had told them in His day, when the time came, “Stand ye in holy places.” Some might have thought that meant the temple, but “holy places” meant anywhere that was designated by revelation.

77

Have you ACTUALLY seen any Bible prophecies fulfilled in your life/lifetime?

by punkofnice in

blowed if i have!.

i know the jdubs think that there are prophetic signs all around.

well they bloody would!.

Cold Steel

He was very clear he would be back within the lifetime of his first followers.

There are numerous scriptures I've seen fulfilled, but it's clear that the early church did not expect Jesus to return in their lifetimes. If you'll recall, Jesus returned after His resurrection and spent 40 days off and on with His disciples. In those extrabiblical documents, a great deal is said concerning the dismal future of the apostles and the bleak future of the church. The Romans would disperse the children of Judah among the nations, they were told. There they would be abused and chastened, but in the last days they would be gathered back into their own lands and would prosper as never before. Additionally, they would make enemies with those "round about" Jerusalem and be attacked, then delivered. (See Amos 9, Isa. 11, Pslm 85, Zechariah 12-14) Also, the church would fall into apostasy and then, in the latter days, be restored. (See 2 Thes. 2:3-4; Acts 3:18-19) The only apostle who lived to see all this was John, who was promised he would see it all happen before the Lord's return.

32

Why judgment is to begin at the house of God?

by Kosonen in

" for the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of god: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of god?

and if the righteous is scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?

"- 1peter4:17-18. why for god to judge his own house?

Cold Steel

There are things that we may disagree on hence predestination or end time sequence, but we agree on essential doctrine salvation is by faith alone, Christ alone, grace alone, scripture alone, and God’s glory alone. the five solas of the reformation. My friend I choose not to debate but to discuss who Jesus is, is of the upmost importance.

The idea of predestination, or the idea that God creates an elite group of people who will be “saved” while others will be born with the express purpose of being damned is, to me, incomprehensible. It was primarily a doctrine fostered by John Calvin, and is unfair to the person being born.

Faith alone, Christ alone, grace alone, scripture alone, and God’s glory alone are doctrines that are highly problematic. The scriptures are clear that it’s just not that easy. Why not baptism alone? Repentance alone? Receiving the Holy Spirit alone?

The scriptures are full of paradoxes, one of which is awfully difficult for Protestants to accept. That paradox is this: A man cannot be saved by his works, but he also cannot be saved without works.

What works? Well, baptism for one. Baptism does not save, but a man cannot be saved without it. Repentance does not save, but a man cannot be saved without it. And so it goes. Paul wrote to the Corinthians about the reality of a physical resurrection, which many people find difficult for some reasons. The Sadducees in Jesus time didn’t believe in it, and many Christians had a difficult time with it as well. Thus Paul wrote: “...Else what shall they do who are baptized for the dead if the dead rise not at all. Why are they then baptized for the dead.” We don’t hear much about vicarious work for the dead in our scriptures, but the early church was very much interested in it. (I Cor. 15:29) If baptism was simply optional and nothing more, why would the early Christians have vicarious baptisms for their departed relatives? Other Christians in succeeding generations told potential converts that their departed relatives were damned because they neither had the opportunity to accept Christ or to be baptized. And Jesus said, “He who believeth and is baptized shall be saved; and he who believeth not shall be damned.” Why did Jesus specifically add the part about baptism if it wasn’t necessary?

Like I said, it’s a paradox, but it’s true. As far as predestination, one only has to consider that God is Just to prove that false. How about scripture alone? The ancient church had an open canon, so there is nothing to suggest that scripture was to suddenly stop. The same is true for revelation. The bottom line is that there have been a lot of scholars working on biblical exegesis for generations, and no one has been able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

32

Why judgment is to begin at the house of God?

by Kosonen in

" for the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of god: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of god?

and if the righteous is scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?

"- 1peter4:17-18. why for god to judge his own house?

Cold Steel

Why for God to judge his own house? Simply because His house needs a real clean up and renovation. All Christians are in different ways walking in error. And nothing but tribulation can prompt them to examine themselves and bring themselves in order for eternal life.

That much is clear. But prophecy is clear that tribulation will not bring them to repentance. Rather, they will shake their fists at the heavens, curse God and die. One great religious leader of our day declared that when men lose the Spirit of God, they lose the ability to act in their own self interests. I think we see that in today’s world as nations continue in their own profligate spending with no way to pay their debts! We’re already seeing them adopting contentious feelings and that will lead to violence and toppling of governments.

Must be the worship of the Christians in the Middle East is displeasing to God. And they are not listening to those who try to correct them. The first thing they should learn is that there is no trinity. But they refuse to repent from this false teaching originating from the Devil. So the best thing now is to let them come to tribulation. At least some will open their minds and hearts, when they will ask why God is not blessing them.

I believe the tribulations will come upon the church, not because of what Christians believe or disbelieve, but in what they do or fail to do. There has never been a period in the history of the world where any civilization was destroyed or punished because of doctrine. Rather, it was how they treated their fellow man. While I am a critic of the doctrine of the Trinity, not all Christians agree on what that doctrine is. In a real sense, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE in purpose, though not one in personality or substance. The Lord is more concerned in whether we love our neighbor and our God. He cares more about whether we feed and house the needy and whether we forgive others. Again, the Lord has never once destroyed a people for their beliefs, but whether they engaged in sexual orgies and infant sacrifice. He also destroyed the heathen priests who had infiltrated Israel in the days of Elijah, but He didn’t destroy the people.

But the same awaits Christians in the “free” western world, where Christians still cling to trinity and other false teachings. Not a single church or organization teaches the pure truth to their members. Every leadership suppresses the truth. So they all need tribulation. And that’s what waits them.

How do you know there’s not a single church or organization that teaches the pure [gospel] truth to its members? This is speculation on your part, and answer me this: If there is no religion on Earth through which God can speak, then does the Christian church even exist? Anciently, God spoke through apostles and prophets—men called and ordained by God, and having divine authority. If the tribulations are to begin with the Lord’s House, and the Lord’s House does not exist, from whence do the tribulations begin? With the state of Israel?

In an extrabiblical scripture from my own church, the Lord states: “Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth; first among those among you who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.”

And Isaiah writes: “Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?” (Isa. 29)

Note that the Lord curses those who “seek deep to hide their counsel” and keep their “works” in the dark from the Lord. It says nothing about their beliefs, but their works. In the end, every knee shall bend and every tongue confess Christ. And in the Millennium the earth will be filled with knowledge of the Lord. But no one will ever suffer in an eternal Hell or fail to be resurrected because of his beliefs.

7

If Jesus is supposed to be Michael, would they not hold the same opinions about peace?

by I_love_Jeff in

why is jesus seen as a man of peace and michael as a warrior?

are they both not the same and have the same opinions about non violence?

are the jehovah's witnesses a bit confused?.

Cold Steel

Do you mean it's no longer taught by the WTBTS?